Welcome to the Writing with Coach McCoach Podcast. I'm your host, Katie McCoach, book coach, confidant, and cheerleader. Since 2012, I've helped hundreds of writers become authors, gain confidence, and grow their best stories yet. Together, we'll untangle the vines of chaos and uncertainty surrounding how to be a writer so you can grow into the author you are meant to be. Let's dig in, writer.
Welcome to episode 24 of the Writing with Coach McCoach Podcast. This is the seventh installment of the What the Fuck is a Writer Supposed to Know About constructive criticism series. So last week, we talked about how to stop giving crummy advice, how to be a good critique partner. Before that, we talked about how to apply feedback, how to filter it, how to not lose your shit when you get advice, how to tell the difference between beta readers and critique learners and editors and types of editors. So we've gone through a lot so far.
Today, our episode is going to be a little shorter, but it relates to this topic and it's more looking at what agents do. So today I wanted to talk to you about when agents give you feedback. Do they even give feedback? What is on R&R? How do you handle feedback from agents? Because it is going to be a little different of an experience than if you get feedback from someone you paid an edit for or beta readers. Let's dive right on in.
I do want to preface this episode by saying this episode is going to be helpful for folks who are traditionally publishing or planning to or hoping to traditionally publish. And that means that they are hoping to get a publisher to publish the book. So that means instead of you putting your own book up on Amazon and doing it all yourself, which is called self-publishing, you are hoping to pitch an agent and an agent will say, I want to represent you and I will connect you to the acquisition editors of publishing houses. Of course, if you're like, I want to be published by Penguin Random House, Harper's Collin, I think Penguin is Penguin Random House now, right? But Harper's, if you want to be published by, you call them the big five, right? Or the big four, then you will need an agent.
But there are also publishing companies that are smaller and you'll still need an agent to pitch them because the agent is the one who's going to actually be pitching your work to the acquisition editors or selling it or what they call is when your book goes on sub, which means you have an agent and your agent is now shopping your book around to the publishers and saying who wants it essentially. And that's when your book is on sub, it's on submission. So if you are hoping to traditionally publish, there are options where you can publish with micro presses or smaller presses. And there are ways that you can just go directly to them and skip the agent route. If you are hoping for a bigger publishing company or a good publishing deal, if you actually hope to get an advance, then having an agent is ideal because they are going to be the ones who are actually selling your work.
That's my quick preface just so everyone knows that this episode is really about when you are pitching agents and that is only something you're doing if you're trying to just traditionally publish. If you are self publishing, you're not going to be in this experience and so you don't really need this information, but should you ever try to traditionally publish, this might be good to know. And especially if you're kind of on the fence, you don't know, well, you're going to hear some buzzwords from today's episode, like an R&R that it'll be good for you to know because right, that's the whole point is what the fuck is a writer supposed to know about literally anything, right?
So here we are today, we're going to talk about R&Rs and we're going to talk about when agents give you feedback as part of our constructive criticism series. So let's just start with when are the times that an agent will even give you feedback? Honestly, this is not something that you should expect when you pitch an agent. So if you've got a complete manuscript and please know that it must be complete manuscript and you're ready, you're like, my book is complete. I have had beta readers on it. I've critique partners, I've had editors. Usually probably you would only use up to a developmental editor. You do not, if you're planning to pitch your book, you do not need copy editing or proofreading. Unless you really, really struggle to spell and keep things consistent. But for the most part, with all the self edits we do, you're going to be sending a clean enough version of your book. You don't need a higher copy editor or proofreader because if your book gets picked up later on, then that's something the publishing company will pay for and take care of. But you might have hired a developmental editor or book coach, beta readers.
So after you've done all that, you're like, okay, I've done everything I can to this book. It is as good as I can possibly make it. I'm going to go pitch it. And this is when you would write a query letter, write a synopsis, and you would send probably the first five to 10 pages, depending on the expectations of the agent. And you're going to pitch it and say, Hey, here's my book. That's where your query letter is. And I would love you to represent me. I'd love you to become my agent. What do you think? Okay, it's totally more nuanced than that, but that's basically you.
So you've sent out your query letters. You are saying my book is complete. I really want you to represent this. And now you're waiting to hear back from agents. So that's where we are in this process. I will have other episodes where I dive into that at different times, but that's where we are right now. So we're going to talk about like when agents give you feedback.
So here you are, you've pitched your book and you get an email back from an agent. You know, you might get a variety of things. You might get a rejection. It might be a form rejection, which is basically, yeah, not for me. And it doesn't give you anything to work off of. It's just very straightforward, like a form. They just repeat over and over, right? That's why they're called form rejections. So sometimes they'll say not for me. And sometimes they'll say, they'll give a little feedback. You know, I really wanted to like this, but I didn't connect to the character. Or I really love the concept, but then the writing wasn't for me. This is kind of tricky, right? Because you're like, well, what do I do? This is tough when you get feedback like that. And agents, they're giving you feedback. But how much can you use? Is it something you can actually do something about? Or is it kind of like, oh, I guess now I'm getting a consensus of what people think.
Even if you have five agents come back and all say the same thing, but they're not giving you clear reason for like why they're saying that. So if they're all like, I didn't connect to the character, that's something where I would say go talk to beta readers, critique partners, book coach, developmental auditor, and say, hey, can you help me with this? Like, why are they saying this? So I have actually a lot of people who will come to me after they've pitched an agent, after they heard feedback, and they'll say, okay, can you work on my book with me and help me figure out what I need to do? Because I'm getting the same feedback.
That's one of the things that you will experience sometimes when you pitch agents. Sometimes you might get a little more than that, right? You might get actual, like some actual feedback. They might be like, I really love this, but X, Y, Z didn't work for me. And usually their feedback is going to be closer to what you might expect from a developmental auditor because they're in the business, they're in the industry. So it's a little higher level and it really helps you get a better sense of, oh, is there something you can do? What happens here is you might get feedback from an agent and you might be like, well, they said they like this, but not this. Do I submit it to them again?
The answer is, did they ask you to? This is called an R&R. This is called a revise and submit. And essentially it's when an agent says, I really like this. I think you should do X, Y, Z. When you do, or if you do, feel free to submit it to me again. I would like to see it. And they'll be very clear. They want to see it again. If you make those changes that they asked for. Not all agents will do this. So you might get feedback and it's like, do X, Y, Z. I really think that'll help your book. If they don't invite you to submit again, then they're not asking for it. They might want it for you, but it might still be like, even if you do this, unfortunately, I don't know that I can still even represent you. Right? Because they, and there's so many reasons. They might have another book that's just like it and it's too similar. They might've just pitched a book just like it. They might know like, oh, I know this could really make it better, but like, it's still ultimately not something I represent or that I want to. Even though I see so much potential, I'm trying to just help you. And sometimes that happens because agents are in the business because they love books, right? Editors, agents, we're all in the business because we love stories.
So sometimes they will just provide that advice, even if they know I can't do more beyond this, but like, I hope this helps you. If you're really unsure, if you get feedback from an agent and you're like, do they want me to resubmit this again? Like if I make these changes, would they want it and you really don't know, and it's really unclear, just ask them. It's not that in the world, right? This is still a business. And so send them an email back. Just say, thank you so much for the feedback. Just to be clear, if I made these changes, is this something you'd want to see again? And they will say yes or no. And you got your answer.
So let's say you do get an R&R, a revise and resubmit. They say, change XYZ, send it back to me when you do. Well, first, so how do you handle this, right? What they're doing is they're saying, I believe in the story, but I think these elements need to be different. If you do them, I would like you to send it to me again. The reason they're not signing you before this is because, first of all, they don't have time to guide you through the process. There are many agents who act more editorial, so they will provide feedback and they'll do a lot more editorial work with their clients or with people they want them to be their clients. And this is fabulous. Not every agent does that. And even the ones who do do that, they might need a little more before they know they can spend the time doing that with you, right?
So first they're trying to say, I really want this. I would love to work with you. I don't have the time to guide you, but if you are able to figure this out and do XYZ, awesome. Like I want to see it, but I got other things that I got other stories. I got so many other things I'm doing. So come back to me when you're ready. The second thing this does is it shows if you do do the work and you come back to them and say, I did it, they get to see, Oh, did you really, did you do it to the level that I was hoping for? Did you make enough changes? Are you able to make edits by yourself? Or even are you able to make edits without coming to me? How do you perform an edit? How fast are you with edits? How well do they turn out? And so when they get them back, they can say, you know what? It's still not what I was hoping for. And that might be the end of it. They might say, I don't think that this is going to work out or they'll be like, dang, you freaking did it. Good for you. Like, this is exactly what I wanted. Let's move forward.
So sometimes it's just, it's also kind of like, can you do it? And so if you have a revise and submit, this is an opportunity to like prove like, Oh, I can edit. And I'm going to be clear with you. You were going to edit. If you get picked up by a traditional publisher and you get a contract with them, you're going to be going through multiple rounds of edits. So you need to be able to do it. So if someone asks for edits, you need to be able to provide those and in a timely manner. So let's talk about what that looks like.
An agent says, here you go. Here's what I think you should do. Send it back to me if you do it. What sort of timeline are they thinking? Are they like, I want it immediately. What if it goes six months? This is what I'll say. Unless I give you a certain time, don't trust about it. I would say anywhere between three to six months for you to make those changes and then resubmit it is totally fair. Stick with that same email chain or reference it if it's not there and say, you asked for the you R&R this book or you asked for an R&R. I made the changes. I really, you know, I really hope you like it. I would love to hear what you think. And it could be six months later. Now if it's past six months, maybe just try anyway. Maybe I mean, what's the worst that happens? They say, sorry, it's too late. Okay, so you could try anyway, right? Or maybe reach out to them and say, hey, it's been a little time, but I made these changes. I would love to submit it to you still and go for it. The thing is, even if you take a long time doing this, your chances of going somewhere with this is better than if you just don't do it, right? If you just don't submit it, well, then you took away any opportunity for yourself. So even if it's a year, they might still be like, cool, awesome. Let me see it. And then you guys can have a conversation if they're like, if later they say, you know, I'm a little worried it took you a whole year, but you did do the work. Then you guys can have a conversation about that and see if that makes an impact or they're going to be like, this is great. I'm timing because this is when I actually have the time to get into that story, right? Of course, the sooner the better. But I will say that from what I know, talking to agents, what they would rather have is the better version of the book, not you hustling to revise and you didn't really put in the work to make sure it was revised well. And so it's just kind of a mishmash of chaos. They're going to be like, my time is limited. I really wanted this to work, but it's not as great as it could have been. And I don't have the bandwidth to continue this relationship forward if you're not able to meet me where I'm asking you to meet me. Right. So it's a lot of give and take. It is part of it.
So yeah, if you get an R&R, you now have these usually clear ways to revise something. You get to decide to do it or not. And if you do it, submit it to them as soon as you can. But don't stop yourself from sending it to them, even if it's been a while, because the chance of you getting somewhere is better than if you just don't do it. Right. Just shoot your shot. That's kind of an overview of that.
But what I want to talk about as well is what if you don't know if you like the R&R, right? So an agent gives you feedback and they say, I think it should be X, Y, Z. If you do it, submit it to me. I want you to always ask yourself, is this what I want? Is this right for me and my story? Do I want to make these edits? Do I want to go this direction with the book? You might get an R&R and they might do things that you're like, oh, well, that's like they're asking for happily ever after. And you're like, no, I specifically did not want these characters to end up happy or vice versa. So you have to really consider, is this what I want? And there are a few ways to think about this. Is this right for me and my story? Those are two different things.
Number one, look at your story. Are these changes being requested? Is that right for your story? Is that the story you're trying to tell? Number one, or is it the story that you need to tell? Number two, because that's not always the same thing, right? So you might be like, that's not exactly what I was doing, but actually the agents write, this is what the story should be. And I missed it. Or you say, nope, they're totally missing the vision. If I change the story this way, it's not my story anymore. It's not what I wanted. I don't want to go down the career path, pitching this book, getting it printed and knowing all along, that's not the story I wanted to exist in the world. Then you know your answer. That's not what you want to do. If you're on the fence, then I want you to look at your future. What do you want out of your future and career? Do you, number one, even if you're like, I don't know if their advice is what I want to do, do you believe that they are providing helpful advice? So even if you're still on the fence, is this right for me or not? You can still look at the advice and say, is this valid advice? Is this helpful? Do they understand the industry? Is it clear if I do X, Y, Z, they know exactly how to pitch this book to those editors and I have a better chance. Because they're believing that if you do this, they will have a better chance of selling your book. Do you believe that true as well? And then if that's the case, yeah, then look at what you want out of your career. Like I said, is this a story you'd want to see published? Is this, this step forward going to help you in your career? If this book got picked up in this version, are you going to feel good about it? Is that going to be how you want to begin your author career? You can, you know, you can always shift your career, right? I mean, it might be hard sometimes, but you can always make shifts. We're always going to be making pivots in life. But think about, is this the one that you want to debut with? Is this the one you want to start with? This is the version. And also look at your goal. What do I want out of my author career? If your goal is, I really want to publish the books in the way I want to publish it, then you might need to hold on or hold out a little longer for the agent who sees your vision the way you do. That might take time. It might not happen. You don't know. You can self-publish if you want to have full control. But also you can say, well, is my goal to sell several books? Do I want like several thousand? Do I want to make money? Do I want to be publishing several books a year? If that's the case, and I feel this advice is helpful, this is what could get me down that path and I'm going to go down that path, right? So look at what you want out of it.
Now this is also a great opportunity to see if this person jives with you. So you can make the changes, you can like them, and the agent might be like, hell yeah, this is amazing. This is exactly what I wanted. I believe in you. I love this story. Let's go for it. And then they might offer you representation. You might get another side of it where they're like, uh, it's still not for me. You could be like, are you kidding? I did everything you wanted. And they still might say that. And I'm sorry, but that's what happens. And that's important to know that if you do an R&R, a revise and submit, and you resubmit with those changes, be prepared if they don't want it or they don't like it. Do you still like that version of the book? Is that the version you want to keep going with? Because if it's not, then maybe it's not worth doing.
For example, I had a client, she got this revise and resubmit back and she was like, I think I agree with it, but like I was trying, I don't really even know how to begin doing it or how do I even do it because she said kind of what she wanted from the story, but didn't give the ideas, the direct ideas. So it was a little more of a vague request. And so the author and I worked together and we took that feedback. I took my knowledge of after reading the book, my editorial feedback, the author's vision, and we talked it out and I said, okay, here are a few options. This is after reading your book and the agent's feedback, this is what I think the agent is trying to pick up from you, right? Like this is what I think she wants and here are options for how we do it. And we made sure before the author made changes that was fully aligned with her. And I said, if you make this change, are you going to feel really good about the book even if the agent doesn't pick it? And she was like, yes, she loves the way it turned out. And it was so much more of what she didn't know the story needed. But thankfully this agent pointed it out and then we worked together to build it up. And even though the agent wasn't very specific on certain things, and I think we even still didn't do exactly everything the agent asked for, she resubmitted to that agent and that agent said, let's do it. So even if it wasn't exactly what the agent said she expected or wanted it to be revised to be, what happened was the author took it and said, okay, I see what you're trying to do. I see how this is more of a marketable setup. This is how we can kind of really sell it quick and easy. But it still has all the elements of the story I really am trying to tell. But I'm clinging onto a few pieces that I'm like, but this is what I wanted. And the agent, instead of being like, you didn't do what I asked for, instead she was like, oh my gosh, you made it better based on the feedback I gave you, you made it the version that needed to be for this story. That made it an even easier yes for the agent because in that way, the author was able to show, hey, I can take feedback, but also I know where to cling on to what I need to cling on to, and I know how to help amplify my own version, vision of what I needed, what I want this to be.
And that has this unconscious layer of it comes out in your writing, comes out in the book. And I can tell when someone is like, oh my God, I can't tell you how many times an author has been like, God, I hated writing that scene. And I'm like, yeah, I could tell. I didn't have fun reading it. It was kind of dull. It was kind of boring. I could tell you didn't really enjoy writing it. And then there are times when they're like, I had so much fun writing that book. And I'm like, I literally was going to say, you must have had a blast because when I finished reading it before I knew you had fun writing it, I finished reading and I was like, this author was vibing this whole thing and you just feel it. And that energy comes out in your stories. That's why I'm a huge advocate for if you give feedback that you're like, I don't know about that or I don't like it. And you finally, after dissecting and understanding, and you can go back to past episodes on that, and really grilling down and being like, okay, I don't like that. I'm going to do it anyway. Yeah. And then you'll know that you didn't like it and it's going to feel it and it's not going to come out that great.
So really when you're starting to look at feedback, consider always, is there something you can really use, but pull it back to what is your goal? What is your vision and how do you make it work for what you wanted to do? Because the more excited you are about it, the more it'll come out.
Okay. So I feel like that's really all there is to it. I just wanted you to understand what an R&R was, how to handle it, when it's worth making that edits, when it's not. And to be clear that even if you do do it, don't edit yourself out of the story. If someone says, I think you should do X, Y, Z, and you do it, but you don't like it, it's probably not going to work out. I will bet that 90% of the time an agent would be like, yeah, I know you did exactly what I asked for, but I don't want it. And it's because usually it's because you didn't actually want that either, or you didn't like the way you're revising it. And so even if you do what someone else said, they're like, that I didn't, it doesn't feel right. Always look back to yourself, what will feel right? And I'm not saying like, you're going to be a hundred percent right all the time. I'm not going to say that, like cling to your only version forever and ever, never edit anything. Well, that won't let you grow. That won't give you a chance to really create the vision that is deep, deep within you that sometimes you don't know needs to be told. There are sometimes that's like what I love. What I do is because I can look at a book and I say, oh, I see what you're trying to do. I see your goal, but this just isn't connecting totally. What can we do? And then we brainstorm and we figure out how do we make what you want to happen, totally happen. How do we make sure it pays off for the readers too? And you feel like, oh, this is exactly what I meant to do the whole time, but I just couldn't exactly nail it. That's what I want for you.
Okay. That's not it. I mean, the other places you might get feedback from agents is like if you do a contest or something where, or sometimes you can pay for agent critiques. These are, this is great exposure. It's great opportunity. You might just get feedback from agents like when you do pitch. And like I said earlier, that doesn't always mean they're asking for it back, but if you're really unsure and they seemed really into it, then take it or give it a shoot your shot and say, Hey, well, if I revise it, do you want it? All right.
Well, I think that's it today. I just wanted to keep it short and sweet. Give you something to think about that's in the same vein of like constructive criticism and feedback, but in a different way that you're going to get it and how to work through it. Come back next week for another episode of the writing with coach my coach podcast. Also be sure to submit your reader questions if you are listening or listener questions, however you want to call it to submit to the ask coach series, because if you have questions, I guarantee someone else also has that question and ask it, submit it in the forum. You can find that in the show notes and I will answer your question as bonus episodes as whenever I possibly can. I'm trying to get at least two of those a month going. So I have a few that I'm going to start. You'll start hearing soon, but of course, if you have any, please don't hesitate to ask. And if you like the podcast, please rate review, subscribe all the good stuff, because I really want to be able to help other writers, give them all the information that they need to make the best choice moving forward.
And I very much of this, like, I want writers to really do what feels right for them and their story. And I think it's, it's so easy to lose sight of that. And that's kind of a huge part of why I did this series, because it's so easy for us to be like, well, someone said we should do this. So I guess I have to do it. And we think, oh, well, they're the industry expert. They know better. I just have to do what they said. And there are times where that might be right. But even still, it doesn't mean you shouldn't consider what's right for you and your story. And I think the other piece is deep down.
I just want everyone to want you to enjoy the process. Enjoy writing. Enjoy becoming an author, because just getting published is not that's not the end. Right. You're going to go through this process, get an agent, publisher, get a big ass book deal, have three books planned out. But if you're writing something you never wanted to write in the first place, you're not going to have fun. So I want you to be having fun because that is important and enjoying the process. Yes, it's hard sometimes. Yes, it sucks sometimes. But the more you can enjoy it throughout your career, the more you're going to love having a career as an author, because it doesn't matter how often you get published. It's that you've been doing what you love. And I want that for you.
So I hope this episode helps. I will see you here next week. We have a few interviews coming up soon, and I'm super excited to start a new series. So I will I'll tease that soon. But for now, I cannot wait to see how you keep growing writer. So until next time, keep growing.
