KATIE: Welcome to the Writing with Coach McCoach Podcast. I'm your host, Katie McCoach, book coach, confidant, and cheerleader. Since 2012, I've helped hundreds of writers become authors, gain confidence, and grow their best stories yet. Together, we'll untangle the vines of chaos and uncertainty surrounding how to be a writer so you can grow into the author you are meant to be. Let's dig in, writer.
KATIE: Welcome to the Writing with Coach McCoach Podcast. This is part of our author interview series. So today I have Amber Roberts with me and I am so excited, doctor. So Amber Roberts writes contemporary romance about unabashedly, hope I said that well, nerdy characters in ridiculous situations. She lives with her husband, two children, and formerly feral cats in the Vermont woods where eating maple creamies is a year-round activity. What the hell is a maple creamy?
AMBER: It is like a soft-serve ice cream cone, but it's a Vermont specialty. It's got more milk content or cream content, so it's creamier than a regular soft-serve.
KATIE: Okay, I love that. I mean, I'm like, have I, I don't think I've been to Vermont, maybe in passing, but now I have a reason to go. It's not for you, it's for the maple creamies.
AMBER: Obviously. There is a Vermont creamy trail that has all of the different creamy stands that you need to go to. So let me know.
KATIE: I love that.
AMBER: I'll make sure you have all the details.
KATIE: Wait, do you have to hike it?
AMBER: No.
KATIE: Okay. Okay. I hear Tray on, I'm like, I mean, I like hiking to an extent. I'll be there in the summer, not the winter. Oh, that's awesome. I love that you live in the woods too. And okay, so Amber is the author of, her first book was Text Appeal and that came out last year, right?
AMBER: 2023.
KATIE: And then Haunt Your Heart Out, it is her second book. When does this come out?
AMBER: Coming out October 8th, 2024. So we're coming up on six months away.
KATIE: Wow. That is so exciting. I saw the cover for Haunt Your Heart Out and I freaking love it. It's so cute. It looks so fun. It's such a, it just, it already, like even the title's awesome. Like the vibe, it just is all you. It's very you. But I want to start off by talking about Text Appeal because I really wanted, obviously we tried to make this happen last year and so now I got my crap together and we are here today and I'm very excited. So I really want to talk about Text Appeal and then we'll talk about Haunt Your Heart Out definitely for sure. But tell me a little, so I'm obviously, I'm like sending you back, but quickly tell me a little bit about Text Appeal.
AMBER: Yeah, so Text Appeal is a book about a woman in STEM who is unfairly pushed out of her job after she accidentally projects an unsolicited dick pic up onto a screen during a work presentation. And because she can't find a good job right away, she takes up sexting to pay the bills briefly and ends up in some pretty wild situations while she's sending text-based sex for cash.
KATIE: Oh my gosh, I love it. So when I, like, so if this is the video that you're watching, I'm going to have the title go up so you guys can see how cute it is. So it's Text Appeal, but then on the cover it's, it actually says Sex Appeal and it's like crossed out. I know, like, wait, I have it here. Here's my copy. Okay, Amber. So something freaking awesome about when I bought this, I went to a local bookstore and I was like, let me see. And it was like the week it came out, I want to say, or maybe, maybe a month or so after. And I was like, let me see if her book is in the bookstore. Like, and it's a Romans, V-R-O-M-A-N-S is the local bookstore here. And I was like, I'm not going to Barnes and Noble. I'm going to go to this one. We'll just see if it happens to be there. And it was there. I was like, it was right there on the shelf. And I was just like, this is such a cool moment to like, I'm on the other side of the country. Like for full disclosure, I worked on a very early, an early draft of this novel. And so it was very exciting to like go to the bookstore and buy it at the bookstore. So I did. So eventually I need you to sign it, but at least I have a copy. That was such a cool moment. What about like, that was a cool moment for me as someone who like had a hand at some point and worked with you and also just has seen your journey. But for you, what has been like the coolest moment of having your book out?
AMBER: Think of walking into stores and seeing it on display, not just on a shelf, but faced out or on the table. It was on a spicy book talk recommendations table. I knocked it off trying to pick it up to show somebody. Knocked it off onto the floor. It was chaotic. But it was so exciting. It was just on this end cap display. And it was on a Women's History Month display at my local bookstore, which got really teary eyed when I saw that. That was fantastic.
KATIE: That is really, really cool. Oh my gosh, that's so amazing. When this came out, okay, I'm saying August 8th, 2023. Okay, so that was just put up on the books like just last month or this month?
AMBER: This month.
KATIE: Oh my God. So it was just put up this month?
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: Oh my gosh, that's so cool. Have you done anything with any of your local bookstores or places?
AMBER: Yeah. So I had a launch event that was super cool. A bunch of people showed up, not even people that I like, it was a lot of people I knew, but my kids were going around the bookstore telling people their mom was going to talk and they had to go listen. So I had a group of people.
KATIE: I love that.
AMBER: My kids recruited them. And that was a lot of fun. We ended up live streaming that on Instagram, which was the first time I had ever live streamed anything on Instagram. And I had no idea what I was doing. But my husband was actually in the hospital the day of my launch event.
KATIE: Oh no.
AMBER: So he was going to miss it. So I was like, can we please stream this? And they're like, oh, yeah, whatever you want to do. So yeah, so that was able to happen. Another event at a bookstore, it was like a romance readers event. And it was me and some bookstagram accounts and some readers and it was packed. They had to find more chairs. They had to pull in like more people. It was a lot of people were there because they knew the bookstagrammers, they were going to be there. And I was, you know, icing on the cake, I guess. But yeah, I went expecting nobody to show up. And then they did. So that was great.
KATIE: That is so cool. Oh, my gosh. When I had first met you, it was 2020, I think, ish. And I want to say that's around when you you had just started writing. Is that right?
AMBER: I had just started writing adult romance. And I think I want to do something with this. Yeah, I've been writing like fanfic before and never really thought it would go anywhere.
KATIE: Right. Okay. Yeah.
AMBER: And then I said, Wait, maybe it can.
KATIE: And then you so you started writing. And you really put a lot into this book. But when you were just starting and you were like, Okay, I think I want to get this published. I mean, of course, you picture the idea of like, I'm going to be a published author. But like, how has it been compared to what you kind of like, expected or wanted?
AMBER: It's, it's different than I expected, which is not all bad. So I ended up with a small publisher. And I had these big dreams of ending up with a big five, and going on book tours and all of that. And looking back, I'm glad I ended up with a small publisher, because I think that the pressure of ending up with a large publisher to begin with would have been a whole lot. Like the small the indie publisher atmosphere with a smaller press has been really great, because they I need an awful lot of handholdings.
KATIE: Oh, really?
AMBER: They're there for that. They answer my questions. And they're, they're really great about that. And I feel like I get a lot of a lot of special treatment that maybe I wouldn't with a large publisher.
KATIE: That's, that's awesome, though.
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: And I think that a lot of people have gone through that experience of, at least from what I've heard and seen of, wait, this is not what I thought it was, but it's ended up being the better path. And whether it's small publisher or just the way they get published, it's just, we kind of were led growing up, it's going to be one way. But then publishing is always changing. And also, I think so much changed after 2020. And so it's still in this weird, like, what is it like to be a published author? And from what I'm seeing, and I've heard from you, it seems like it has, it's been different than what you expected, but it's been a really great experience.
AMBER: It has. Yeah, I've really enjoyed. I've really enjoyed it.
KATIE: That's so cool.
AMBER: You know, it's still stressful, and I still have moments where I'm like, why am I allowing myself to be perceived? I write about introverts, because I'm very introverted. And so and it's really funny to me how many authors are introverted and are allowing themselves to be on this stage where people are reading their work, picking apart their work.
KATIE: Yeah, it's really interesting to me how many introverted, quiet people end up in this business. It's interesting, because it was originally like, being a writer is like you could be that but now it's very front facing. Like you really do have to put yourself out there all the time. Because that's just kind of the world we're in with social media. And people want to, they don't want to just, it's not just about the book, it's also about you. And that is hard to for a lot of people, especially introverts. I'm introvert too. But like, clearly, we both have our times where we're like, all right, let's step out and kind of put on that energy. And then the extroverted energy, it's like our shield, right? But then we're gonna just go probably both of us will like not talk to anyone the rest of the day. Like, I need to regain.
AMBER: Yeah, exactly.
KATIE: But so how, how has that been having to, like, you've been doing really well, I feel like you are, I've, it's been really great watching you. Like, as I see you online, and I see that you are just showing up. And you're just talking about your book, which is like all you can do, and your experience. And you have such a great bubbly personality. So of course, I mean, I'm sure people are just like drawn to you. But has it been, has it been really hard having a balance that aspect plus then like, you just want to write?
AMBER: Yeah, so full disclosure, I haven't written anything new in two months. I make plenty of first pages. I have come up with plenty of ideas. But at this point, there's so much going on, writing and editing wise that I have not had that space that I need to create.
KATIE: That's tough.
AMBER: It is tough. And I am used to constantly writing, I used to be able to turn out a draft in 60 to 90 days, I could have an entire first draft written and then be ready to edit. But I think a lot of it is that I'm putting pressure on myself, because I am now published, I now have a second book coming out, and I can see the difference between my original first drafts and what I know I can produce. So I keep forgetting that a draft is a draft. It's only job to exist. So maybe someday, I can remind myself of this and get back in the zone. We'll see.
KATIE: Maybe you'll rewatch this clip. I'm gonna like make that just be a clip. I'm gonna make it, watch it every day, hear yourself because that happens to me too. I'm saying something out loud. I'm like, okay, I know this, but why am I not, it's not clicking. But for you, reminder that yeah, draft is just a draft. And it's hard when you have to do so much work in between. So let's talk about that a little bit. And then we'll come back around to some things. But I want to, let's talk about what your process was like. I want to go back to like, before you had an agent, before you got published, you had this draft for text appeal. It was not called that at the time, was it?
AMBER: It was called Beginner's Guide to Sexting.
KATIE: Oh, right. Okay, right. Which is also super fun.
AMBER: They made me change it because they couldn't run ads for something with the word sexting in it.
KATIE: Oh my gosh.
AMBER: So pro tip, watch what you name your book or you won't be able to run it. Okay, that's really funny. It's a great title now too, but that was a fun title.
KATIE: And so talk to me about like, you first, you wrote your draft and stuff. When you were at that stage, especially, I guess, tell us about when you were like, wait, I think I want this to, I want to do something with this. What did you have to do? What was like the next step you had to take?
AMBER: So it started out as a nano, nano-remo, nano-rimo, depends on where you land on that pronunciation scale. It started out as a project for that, for the summertime nano camp. And so my goal was 50,000 words. And I figured once I hit 50,000 words, I will have met my goal. It will be fine. No worries. Like, I don't have to continue. But I started thinking about the characters when I wasn't writing. And I realized they didn't have an ending and my brain would not let me move on to anything else because they didn't have an ending. So I think that what made me realize I needed to do something with this was that their story had not been resolved for me. And because I was still thinking about it, I was thinking maybe somebody else would care about their ending as well. And sothat's kind of my next step was ending the story, finding a conclusion.
KATIE: That's awesome. That's cool. I like that it just stuck with you. I mean, it wouldn't let you go. What made you want to do the nano, the summer version, the camp version?
AMBER: I don't know. I think that it was just kind of an excuse to do something for myself. I've got two kids and they were both pretty young at that point. I was writing this one in 2019. So one of them was three. He was still home from school. He hadn't started preschool yet or anything. And I just kind of needed that space. And it was summertime and they could play outside with my husband. And so I would take every chance I got to sit and write. And then there was a structured, I need structure. My ADHD demands it. So there's a structured opportunity to write. So I took it.
KATIE: That's awesome. That's very cool. So then once you were like, okay, I think I want to do something with this. Did you have, did you know people at the time? Like, did you have writer friends or like, where did you, where do you feel like you began the process of, okay, what do I do to get this published?
AMBER: So I Googled writing lessons. Okay. I found your website.
KATIE: Really? Oh my God. That's so funny.
AMBER: I ended up finding your website. I found out about like Rev Pit and I started following you on social media and then I ended up in your Facebook group and that's the trail that got me to actually.
KATIE: Really? Oh my gosh. Okay. That's wild. I can't believe I was like, someone's like early step. That's very cool. And that really, and at the time that you had joined the group, so 20, it was 2020 and I was doing those weekly lives. So I would go on the Facebook group and I would answer questions and you were awesome. You were, you showed up like literally every week. I loved it. Always had questions, which was great because I obviously I loved helping and and then I got to see your journey. You know, I got to watch you from that stage, which I didn't know exactly where you had started, but it was fun to watch. Like, I mean, now it's only four years later. I mean, it only took a couple of years, like, but you, with that being said, I know a lot of people are like, damn, that was fast and yours was fast and your publishing was fast. We'll get to that. When you were trying to get agents to do over pitch first and then like, oh shit, I did it too soon. Or did you wait and then you pitch when you were ready and that's what led to your agent.
AMBER: I did pitch too soon. I had gotten on Twitter because I heard that it was a great place to go to meet. At the time. It was. I was like, I'm going to like network. Yes. Don't look for me on Twitter because I'm barely. I'm barely. But so I got on Twitter and I found out about these pitch events that were on there. And so I said, how hard could it be? I'll throw a pitch out there. And I actually got two agent likes. And so I panicked because my my book, I didn't know if it was even ready. But I sent off the queries anyway. And I got some very quick projections. But the advice was basically, this isn't quite ready yet. Keep working at it. And, you know, in the future, we'd be open to hearing from you again. So but I, I wasted those those queries because if I had waited, maybe I could have pitched again when it was ready.
KATIE: Interesting. Maybe. But do you also feel like that was a moment that really shifted what you did next?
AMBER: I think that the fact that there was interest in my pitch showed me that the premise had promise. So I felt confident in continuing to work on my story because there were people that said, oh, hey, this is a fun idea. Let's hear about it. So I think that it was it was good to have that moment.
KATIE: Okay, that makes sense. And I mean, because I don't I talk a lot about mindset and stuff and and self doubt and I know imposter syndrome is really big for writers. So when you got those, I mean, I'm sending you back. So if you're like, I don't want to talk about it, but I am curious because it's something every writer faces rejection at some point. And you got that saying, hey, it's too soon. Like do some work. Did you were you just kind of like, okay, let's go or did you?
AMBER: Yeah, I took it as a challenge, honestly.
KATIE: Okay. That's a personality benefit or personality flaw. I think it's a good thing for sure.
AMBER: Yeah. So I definitely took it as a challenge and wanted to I wanted to get an A in querying.
KATIE: I love that. I love that. Yeah, you were definitely a student at heart. I can see that for sure. Yeah. But that's awesome. And it goes to show because I feel that when I think about what it takes to be to reach a certain success, and that's, of course, that definition varies for everyone. But like, when I see the writers who end up getting published and continue to write after they get published, I feel that there it's usually like a determined like you are like, well, I'm doing this, I'm just going to keep doing it and it'll happen. Plus being willing to learn and then being willing to ask for help when you need it. So do you feel that you kind of have that like, I'm just going to keep doing it? Like, how did you like going into like, what sort of mentality do you have to be able to keep going, especially with rejections and, and anything that you don't know could come that will come?
AMBER: I'm very stubborn. So I think that helps. I also I do always have this mindset of always learning. Yeah, always, always learning something new or always trying something new. I get bored if I sit around too long. So I take the opportunities to to learn from my experiences and keep keep trying.
KATIE: That's awesome. Yeah, that's really great. And it really does show because you're just you just keep moving forward. I mean, I've only seen you just keep moving forward. And I think that is truly the game changer. And that's why you are published and why you have a second book coming out. And why I know you're going to write this third book just fine. And you're fine. I'm not worried. It might be a pause right now, but you're going to do it. I know you are.
AMBER: Well, if you believe in me, then I have faith.
KATIE: Well, I think sometimes that's, it's part of it too, right? Is having people who believe in you. And it seems like you, your husband has been a full supporter. I mean, he built from what I know, he built you a little writing nook, right? Like, I love that. Who else have been like, have there been other people or critique partners who have made a difference in your journey?
AMBER: Before I had critique partners, I had my best friend who would get all of my wild snippets at all hours of the day or night. She would get my messages that are like, is this fun or is this creepy? I don't know where this is landing. She's read practically every section of my book before it was completed, except not in any kind of order. She has no context most of the time for any of the snippets. So before I had critique partners, she was the only person who saw anything I wrote. I didn't even share it with my husband or anybody. But then...
KATIE: She's like your hype woman?
AMBER: Yeah. Yeah.
KATIE: So... She keeps you going.
AMBER: In my acknowledgments for text appeal, I say thank you for giving me the stars to her because she sends me stars, like little star stickers. Like a gift card.
KATIE: I love that. Yes.
AMBER: So she made it in my acknowledgments with that because every time I sent her something, she gives me stars. Or if I do a really good job, I get gifts with shooting stars.
KATIE: That's really... That's really fun.
AMBER: I work with stars.
KATIE: Wait, how do we all get this person? Like that is so great, especially because also with ADHD, I'm also there too. And I've learned and then I haven't implemented this enough, but like literally getting like sticker like star stickers and like rewards and stuff truly can help us keep going so much. And you had that like built in with your best friend. That's just really freaking cool.
AMBER: She's known me since I was, I don't know, 12 or 13. So she knows what she wants.
KATIE: That's amazing. And I love that she was there with you for the whole thing. Okay. Well, you have a friendship that everyone is going to which they have. But that's amazing. That's really great. And then, but then you ended up getting critique partners, right?
AMBER: Yeah, I did.
KATIE: How did you end up finding them?
AMBER: There was a critique partner matching program. It's no longer active and I'm blanking on the name right now anyway, but we were matched up. It was first a group of four and then one of the members ended up having some other things happening. So they left. But it's been me and these other two critique partners since 2020. I think I met them in September of 2020. And it was all virtual. I've been able to meet one of them in person finally. Oh, cool, and can't wait to meet the other one in person. But we meet every Friday.
KATIE: And still, really?
AMBER: Yep. We still meet every Friday. Sometimes we exchange pages and most of the time we just chat for an hour. So it's become kind of a social gathering, but we're always in each other's messages, sending each other snippets and talking about everything. So they move from my critique partners to my friends who I go to first with exciting news, bad news, just whatever happened in my day. And because they're writers, they can understand the nuances of what this journey is like. Yes, they understand the writing, they understand the publishing side of things. They get all of my joys and all of my complaints.
KATIE: Yeah, that's really amazing. I mean, it sounds like basically like a mastermind, like an unofficial mastermind. And I love that you guys meet all the time because even just taking the space, even just talking about writing or just having that time to experience whatever feelings you're experiencing is probably really great at keeping you going too. When I'm sure at all points someone at a writer is like, yeah, why am I doing this? Like this is so much. Or it sounds like that has really been able to keep you just feeling like excited to be doing it. You're just having fun. And that's what I get from you a lot is most of the time it seems like you're just you're having a lot of fun doing it. Am I wrong or am I right?
AMBER: I'm usually having a lot of fun doing it. I used to have a bumper sticker on my car. I think it's the Ben and Jerry's slogan, but it's like, if it's not fun, why do it? And it was on my car for years until I had to get new cars. And that's kind of my mindset in everything. If it's not fun, I don't want it.
KATIE: I love that. That's amazing. And I think it comes out in the writing too. You have so much fun writing text appeal and it shows and then readers have fun reading it and you're having so much fun talking about Haunt Your Heart Out. Haunt Your Heart Out, right? And so it's like, I don't I really don't know anything about it because I've just seen like the cover and stuff and I can imagine, you know, I know it's romance, but I'm like, well, I can't wait to read it too, because it just sounds like you're just having so much fun writing it and talking about it. And that's awesome. I love it so much.
AMBER: I really love text appeal, but I don't know. Don't tell text appeal, but Haunt Your Heart Out is my favorite.
KATIE: Really? I can see that for sure. But when you were writing text appeal, could you imagine that there would be another book that you would love more?
AMBER: No, I thought that like there was no way anything could top it. I was having so much fun with it. I was just enjoying myself and the characters and the journey. And I was I was like, yeah, I'll never write anything this good again.
KATIE: And but because you were a person who just wants to keep learning, of course you did. And of course, the next thing is even better. And I'm sure the next book will be even better. And you're just going to be like, wow, look what I've been doing. But with that being said, what parts have been really hard in the process?
AMBER: I always struggle with staying on task when it comes to stakes in a book. I either go really, really big or really, really small. And I struggle to find that middle ground. And I think it's because I don't know why it is, but it's a thing that that has always been an issue. And I don't know if it's because I'm just trying to have fun and maybe trying to find the stakes makes it feel like work. Maybe I've just unlocked my reasoning.
KATIE: Right. There you go. Yeah.
AMBER: But every project that I touch, that's where I get hung up. And that's where things get really hard.
KATIE: That's really interesting. So what have you done about that? What have been some of your ways of working through that?
AMBER: I tried outlining. So I'm usually a pantser. I usually just sit down. I don't have anything in mind aside from sometimes there's a character in my head that I decide I'm going to write. And I start with no plan. So I've tried to outline. I've gone both scene by scene or like beat by beat following the romancing the beat structure to see if I can fill things in before I start writing. And that seems to help me come up with the ideas I can get from beginning to end. I can fill in all the pieces that are supposed to be there. But then when it comes time to write, my brain goes, no, I don't want to follow the rules. You set rules and I'm going to break them. So I don't know yet if outlining is the right move. I think I might need to find some middle ground that's kind of outlining without too many strict rules.
KATIE: What about with Haunt Your Heart Out? Was the process for writing that one different than text appeal?
AMBER: That one took fewer editing passes because after writing text appeal, I realized that things tend to fall apart when I start a chapter and don't really have any direction for the specific chapter. I don't have to know where the book is going, but I have to at least know where the scene or the chapter is going. So for text appeal, I just wrote chapter by chapter and it took some wild turns. But for Haunt Your Heart Out, before I started every chapter, I had an idea in my head for a problem that the characters would have to face, whether that was the car wouldn't start or a third act breakup kind of problem. And that helped me draft faster because I was on task. I had a plan for each chapter and I didn't end up quite as blocked in the middle of a chapter as I normally would have. And I also, I think in working on text appeal, I learned a little bit about story structure that maybe I didn't know before. So it was a little easier to understand where I needed to go with Haunt Your Heart Out as I was writing it.
KATIE: Did you, while you were writing Haunt Your Heart Out, did you have, was there someone like, did you have your editor or someone that you're like delivering it to or you had a deadline or something that else like that?
AMBER: No, actually. So I wrote this one before I even had a book deal for text appeal. So I didn't have, I sent it to my critique partners as I was writing it. That was another big thing. Actually, they were also helping me stay on task. I was about three chapters ahead of what they were reading the whole time I was writing it. But if they flagged something in a chapter that was either a problem or didn't quite work, I was able to force correct before I got too far, before I got to the end. So that was also a really big difference that I can't believe I forgot about that part.
KATIE: No, that's really neat. But you didn't have that for text appeal.
AMBER: I did not. No.
KATIE: Okay. So that's really interesting. So do you feel that you were being, you had your group that you were being coached along the way and yeah, like you said, you were able to like work out kinks before they became like, oh my God, I have to rewrite the whole damn book. That's really cool that you have that and that they were able to provide that because that's a lot of, I mean, it's a lot on a critique partner, of course. But that's really freaking awesome that they were there for you in that season of writing. How long did it take you to write that one?
AMBER: That was in my, it was in my like 60 day writing window that I used to have.
KATIE: It's okay. Things change. I mean, now you're, you're published.
AMBER: I'm promoting now. I didn't have to do that before.
KATIE: No, exactly.
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: You were just writing and that there's different fun pieces of it. I mean, it is so interesting, right, that for so many writers, the goal is to get published, but then you do and you're like, wait, I was writing before. What is this new world? And so luckily, because you have this like willingness to learn, I think that's helped you through as you've been doing this. But it's like, I hope that you're giving yourself grace that you have paused on the writing because I do believe you're going to get back to it and then you're going to go through a season where you're like, I'm not like, leave me alone. And that might be your style. And that's totally fine. So so okay, so you have text appeal. Tell me about the process, like getting an agent and stuff. So tell us a little bit about that. And then the deal that came after.
AMBER: So getting an agent, I my agent offer came a year to the day from the time I sent my first query. Wow, it was kind of weird and mind blowing to me. But there were there were a lot of rejections. The interesting thing is, though, that my, my query itself, my pitch letter, never really changed. The thing that changed that made the difference was changing my opening. I basically cut the majority of the first 50 pages and then rewrote the beginning of the story. And when I did that, that's when I started getting more full requests.
KATIE: Wow.
AMBER: So that told me that that the beginning, I think it was starting too early in the story. And so I moved up the start to when the action really started happening. And it was almost instantly I saw the full request start to come in when I started sending the queries. So I don't know if it was the pages, or if it was that I had just found a better set of agent matches. But either way, it worked pretty well. And once those full requests came in, there was a lot of waiting, everybody was busy, as they always are in publishing. And I ended up getting an agent offer after I think she had my full for six months.
KATIE: That seems probably fairly normal.
AMBER: Yeah. Yeah.
KATIE: Although it has it I don't I'm curious if it's changed a little lately. But I think at the time you were doing that it was a very backed up time and publishing. Which though is very interesting because you got your agent and then how soon did you get the publishing deal?
AMBER: It was very soon. I first my first submissions went out in July. The first one and I got my deal in August. So it was very, it was very fast.
KATIE: And that's amazing. And it just seems like I think for sure that you had hit like the your book was the perfect thing for the market. And at that time, and also, it seems like from what I saw from the outside, the publishing house was like, wait, we need to get this out as soon as possible to because what you were that by by a year.
AMBER: Yeah. And the original publishing date was supposed it was supposed to be in October. But then they moved it up because sales was excited about it. And then they moved it up more because they wanted to be able to have it published in time for bookstore romance day. Which was a week after the book came out. So it was it went from Okay, this is doable fall October, I can do that to how about a little sooner and I was I didn't have a whole lot else going on. So I could manage to how about less than a year from now, which is panic set in. But yeah, I, I was able to just I had to do dev edits, and then copy edits and past pages in a very short time span. But I was able to make it work because my schedule allowed for it. Oh, gosh, has a schedule that would allow for that. But yeah, I was able to do it. And I ended up I mean, I took a week and a half off to do my developmental edits.
KATIE: Oh, okay.
AMBER: So I was able to just not focus I treated writing like my day job, which I would love to do full time. But that's not just gonna happen. Yeah, that I was able to do that.
KATIE: Yes. Yeah. Next goal. You got you met the publisher, you got the agent goal, and then you got the published deal goal. And now you have a second book coming out. And so you're gonna hit the full time author goal in the future. I know it for sure. You're on that path. So you're Yeah, that's awesome.
AMBER: If that's what you want, you know, but I think I would end up doing something part time, so that I had something else to split my attention.
KATIE: Yes. Yeah. Next goal. You got you met the publisher, you got the agent goal, and then you got the published deal goal. And now you have a second book coming out. And so you're gonna hit the full time author goal in the future. I know it for sure. You're on that path. So you're Yeah, that's awesome.
I understand that.
AMBER: But yes, that would be a great, a great way to be.
KATIE: Yes. Yeah. Next goal. You got you met the publisher, you got the agent goal, and then you got the published deal goal. And now you have a second book coming out. And so you're gonna hit the full time author goal in the future. I know it for sure. You're on that path. So you're Yeah, that's awesome.
Yeah, yeah. But that's really cool. So So how many passes then? Because you just listed a few? Was it a lot of edits? It was I would say like a medium amount.
AMBER: Okay, so my editor said she would consider it medium. It seemed like less than medium to me. So that was an example of not really understanding the expectations. Because what I had was less than I would have expected, based on what my critique partner had for her.
KATIE: Yes. Yeah. Next goal. You got you met the publisher, you got the agent goal, and then you got the published deal goal. And now you have a second book coming out. And so you're gonna hit the full time author goal in the future. I know it for sure. You're on that path. So you're Yeah, that's awesome.
Okay. Okay.
AMBER: So it was one medium edit pass, and then smaller edit pass. And then more like line edit or still a little more So my editor does line edits and development, developmental edits.
KATIE: And this is your acquisition editor, the one who said yes for the book, like took the deal. Okay. So and so it maybe was fewer editing passes than other people have, because she combines them in one. Okay. Yeah.
AMBER: Which actually was probably better for me, because I was so tired of rereading my book by the end.
KATIE: Yeah, I imagine.
AMBER: But having fewer actual like times where I have to read through my book was probably better for me.
KATIE: Yeah, yeah. And then one copy editing pass?
AMBER: One and then a really quick one that was just I had left. I always have questions. And I left a bunch of questions. So it was mostly responding to my questions.
KATIE: That's awesome. Two sets of past pages. I see. So tell me about that a little bit.
AMBER: So past pages are torture.
KATIE: Really?
AMBER: I'm at right now for Haunt Your Heart Out. So I do not feel so strongly about it being torture later on. But right now it feels like the worst part. Because well, so for Text Appeal, I had read it so many times that I didn't want to have to read it again. But I had to read closely to find errors that had snuck through. The problem with Haunt Your Heart Out is I keep getting distracted because I'm so into the story. And I keep reading it.
KATIE: So cute.
AMBER: I have to go back and reread because I forgot that I'm supposed to be looking for errors.
KATIE: Oh my gosh.
AMBER: And Haunt Your Heart Out is also different than Text Appeal in that the the editor requested I change the plot a bit before they accepted the book. So I rewrote it significantly before sending it, sending the final version to them. So the developmental edits on that were on what kind of amounted to a first draft because I had rewritten it so heavily. So I'm not tired of this book at this point.
KATIE: Oh, yeah, that makes sense.
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: That's really interesting. So Haunt Your Heart Out, when did you how did that? How did that come to be that you were like, what happened? What was the process? The editor was like, hey, do you have anything else?
AMBER: Yeah. So I had an option clause. So I was required to submit my next book to my publisher for consideration before submitting elsewhere. And my editor is fantastic and gets me in, like, the best ways. So I was like, yeah, absolutely. How about this book? It's one that I had written and already liked. I was planning on querying it if I didn't get any agent interest with text appeal. So it was in a mostly ready state. And I had another book that I could have written and submitted, but I didn't really feel like it was the right time for me to be telling that story. I felt very strongly about this one. So I could have gone with a different book, but I really liked this. And so, yeah, I did. I submitted it. They made requests for the changes that I would make. And then we moved through the process from there.
KATIE: When you felt good. I mean, I guess.
AMBER: Yeah, no.
KATIE: And so when they gave you that feedback, like, OK, yeah, we like it. But can you make these changes? Did you feel like immediately like, oh, yeah, I love these changes or iffy?
AMBER: So the original changes they requested, I hated. I was like, no way I'm doing that. This is not something that like that's not what the story is. And they said, oh, OK, like, we want to work with you. So let's talk. So I got on a call with my agent and my editor and we chatted. It was maybe an hour, hour and a half. We brainstormed ideas and I didn't really like any of them. And then I said, OK, listen, like the heart of the story is this. And I explained the plot because they were just working off of synopsis. They hadn't read it yet. At that point, I was submitting a proposal and the editor said, oh, wait, that's what we want. I said, oh, that's basically what I have already. So we went through all of this only to realize that the heart of the story was what they were looking for. It just hadn't really been explained well in the synopsis that we submitted. So the changes that I ended up making were way less significant than what we had originally been thinking I would be doing.
KATIE: Oh, wow. Gosh, it just goes to show sometimes like you need to have that conversation in real time and so you can really figure out like what are we not acting on? It's all about communication.
AMBER: Absolutely.
KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. That's really interesting. But it also is a I guess goes to show to like a synopsis. Man, there's some things that are hard to put in there, but like really need to be if you're trying to express like what a story is. When did you ever write a new synopsis with the new direction?
AMBER: I wrote up a new synopsis and there were some changes that we did decide to make to the book. So I wrote a new fresh synopsis, including those changes and also made sure that I was very clear about the pieces of the story that I hadn't covered before that were there. And it's more like the feeling parts of the story and not so much the plot parts of the story.
KATIE: Right. Okay. Because a lot of people who are going to listen to this are writers. Can we dig into this a little bit? Because it's really interesting because a lot of people are asked to provide a synopsis when they query at the stage two or on a proposal. And so like really on a practical terms, like what did you find you had to really change? Like and how did you know the difference?
AMBER: So as usual, stakes is what my synopsis is missing. The editor couldn't really connect the reasons for so when one character is a traveler, one character is a homebody. And my synopsis was missing the reason that the reason they couldn't reach their goal. So why the homebody was looking at potentially having to leave or what what her reason was, like what her struggle was. And then for the traveler was, okay, but why does he have to leave or why what's keeping him from staying basically is what I was missing in the synopsis, because otherwise it just looked like, okay, they just need to. They just need to talk about it. And I had to. I had to add more story to it. It was very, very gentle and there wasn't enough plot included.
KATIE: I was gonna say like, what is the aspect there? Was it was it external or yeah, what was the level of like plot that you felt you were missing?
AMBER: So I was really as a romance writer, I probably shouldn't admit this, but I was missing the reason that they would end up together, what pulled them together, not necessarily in a relationship, but what pulled them together to make them get to know each other. Right. So there wasn't a reason for them to end up in each other's area. They were in each other's area, but I hadn't really dug into why.
KATIE: Sort of providing a frame or like what was it also kind of related to the hook in a way of like.
AMBER: Yeah, the hook, I would say was it was kind of weak.
KATIE: OK. Yeah.
AMBER: And I think it wasn't entirely related to the hook, but strengthening all the pieces of the synopsis that I did really improve the hook.
KATIE: Yeah. Well, and you know that I'm big on characters. And so, you know, I talk about flaw and goal and motive. What did you feel like? And stakes, of course, to you said the stakes were missing. But like, did you find that it stemmed on not having some other element developed?
AMBER: I think I had I had too many elements. OK, so it wasn't focusing on one or two specific elements. So I I had a lot of characters doing a lot of things, but I ended up cutting some some side storylines that didn't really add to anything and just kind of made things feel a little too all over the place. I also in my original draft, I'd held back a lot on some of the internal parts that made the characters who they were. So Lex, the main character, has depression and anxiety. And I was writing this during 2020, 2021, when everything was kind of shut down and nobody knew what the world was doing. And I held back a little bit on working those pieces in. But once I gave myself permission to really explore those areas, when I was in the right mindset to do that, I realized that that was a lot of what was missing was exploring those areas for that character.
KATIE: Yeah. OK, so then let me challenge you. So what is Lex's thing that she has to like, you know, her flaw or the thing she has to learn by the end or overcome?
AMBER: She thinks that everybody always leaves.
KATIE: OK, and I'm assuming that's rooted in some good backstory.
AMBER: Yes. So her sister moved away to college. Her parents followed her sister after she moved to college for reasons that she didn't understand at the time, which are explored in the book. Her ex-boyfriend moved to chase a career in music. And her grandfather also passed away. So she feels like everybody leaves, which is why a character who is a traveler and who is only a year and a half is a problem.
KATIE: I love that. That's such a good like that just like sings to me because it's like you you create you had the perfect worst thing, but that's what she needed to be forced to change. And what about who I'm reading right now? So James, what's his shit he has to get over?
AMBER: Well, first of all, he's a little scared of ghosts. OK, so but he also he is. He's wandering because he's trying to find who he is and where he belongs. So where everybody always leaves, he's always leaving because he doesn't feel like he has a place.
KATIE: Hmm. OK. Oh, I like that. That's that's great. And OK, so I'm so she's a ghost hunter and a bookseller.
AMBER: She's a bookseller. She used to have a ghost hunting blog. So it her blog was around the same time that YouTube started up. So she had some early YouTube fame that she has since abandoned. Yeah, and so he's there with a ghost hunting crew investigating stories that just so happened to be from the blog that she had back in. It was like I think 2006 is when her blog would have been on.
KATIE: Oh, that's so fun. I love that. And I'm reading your description here. And it's so funny because we talked about stakes. I love that in the description. It literally says. But as they spend more time together, she's falling for James. Worse, there's more at stake than her simply being found out and losing his affection. And then you go on his mission isn't as frivolous as it seems. And her interference may cost him much more than a spooky story. Love it. So and I that that final line is always that final paragraph is always about the stakes. And so I love that it's not vague stakes right now. Like we got really particular. And so that it sounds like was part of the work you did with your editor and agent.
AMBER: Yeah. I think the original the original end of that had been something about having to choose the life she's always known to a man who doesn't want to put down roots or something like that, which was super vague.
KATIE: Yeah. Okay. So he doesn't want to put down roots like a big deal.
AMBER: So yeah, that was that was part of the work we did was specifically.
KATIE: Nice. I love it. That's great. The cutest cover. So fun. I'm just looking at it right now.
AMBER: I screamed when I sat literally screamed. It was so great. And more than I could have ever imagined.
KATIE: Yeah. Did you have much say on either of these covers?
AMBER: So for text appeal, I sent over a bunch of ideas, and they didn't really use any of them except for I said that I picture the characters as these two people. And they didn't really use any of the ideas that they had. And it turned out perfect. I could not imagine it any different.
KATIE: Yeah, it's, it's perfect. It's super cute. I love it. It's super cute.
AMBER: But for a hundred hard out, I sent over basically a PowerPoint presentation. It was it was ridiculous. It was something like 20 slides of like inspiration and all that. So these are the characters I picture them as and this is what the bookstore looks like. And this is like the town center. I put together I sketched my own like mock cover for it. And I only briefly said maybe in a cemetery. And they ended up going with the cemetery aspect, which is perfect. I never imagined I'd get a cemetery and a book cover, but I'm so glad I did. And a lot of the other ideas would have been fun, but they were more winter focused. Because even though it's like spooky and the ghost hunting, it does take place in the winter. It takes place in December.
KATIE: So okay. So I think they kind of found a really good balance with the haunt your heart out and the spookiness in the cemetery, but also having snow and yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm looking at the cover and yeah, you've got the cemetery and there's snow like around all the headstones and yeah, tombstones. And I like that it's like the flashlight with the ghost hunter aspect. So that's, that's really cute. It's really cool.
AMBER: I love his little eyebrow. My favorite part. He looks so like concerned.
KATIE: And because of the title, we know it's a romance. So like it's, you know, it's so it hits the vibes right away. That's really fun. Did they ask you to provide anything or were you like, did you just take that on yourself to provide all that?
AMBER: They asked if I had any ideas. And I said, well, yeah. Because while I was waiting for them to decide, I had nothing else really to do. Like I could have been writing, but I was too stressed waiting for the decision. So I started thinking about cover ideas in that stretch. So I already had plenty of ideas. And I knew from text appeal that they might ask for a title change. So I had brainstormed a bunch of different title ideas too.
KATIE: Was this one you had?
AMBER: So yeah, the title, the original title was spirits and sleigh bells, but they wanted a change. And so haunt your heart out was like number two on my list of ideas. I guess I'm 10, maybe 10 ideas.
KATIE: It's a great, I like it a lot. It's really cute title. Oh, I love it.
AMBER: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, this is really fun.
KATIE: So when this comes out, you said October, but it's already up so we can preorder it on Amazon now.
AMBER: Yep. It's available for preorder.
KATIE: Pretty freaking cool. So on Kindle, you can, it's right now it's $14.99 on Kindle, which is very exciting. And are you doing any like pre-promotion stuff? That's different than before?
AMBER: I am going to be doing a preorder campaign. It's not fully organized yet, but I am doing a preorder campaign through Bear Pond Books in Montpelier, Vermont. They're going to be doing signed preorders and they're also going to be handling the swag. I'll be tucking in swag to all the books. I'm meeting with an artist sometime in April to get the swag design in order. Very cool. Marks in the works and I have, my husband is making patches.
KATIE: Oh, that's so fun.
AMBER: The patches will be limited because my husband is making them and he's cutting them out individually and like peeling the edges. So there will be a limited number of patches available.
KATIE: That is really fun. Oh, I love it. So now you are working on promoting this and at some point you're going to start writing something else or do you already know what you're going to do next? Is that a conversation?
AMBER: I have a first draft of something that when I figure out how to revise it, I will be revising it. It's a complete first draft, but I need to overhaul it pretty significantly. And then I have an idea for a book that it's the one that I outlined and I have all of the beats in order, but every time I sit down to write it, I can't follow my own rules. Interesting. So I have two potential projects.
KATIE: And have you talked to them about either of them?
AMBER: Not yet. No. I'm still trying to figure out which one I want to work on.
KATIE: Because it's up to you. You're saying at this point, it's still up to you. You get a pitch and say, hey, like this is the next one. And then they have the option to take it or not.
AMBER: Yeah. Yeah.
KATIE: All right. But have they come to you and been like, or is that a goal you want where they're like, hey, we want you to write a book about this?
AMBER: Oh, I haven't even thought of that. I think I'd be too stressed out by that. Because I know I can't be.
KATIE: I'm sure you're not.
AMBER: If somebody said this is what we want, I could make it happen. Because they work really well with deadline.
KATIE: You could get full posts.
AMBER: Yeah. But it would be like, but it has to be your take on it.
KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. That's exciting. Well, are you on a goal of like, releasing a book a year? Or are you going to pause a little?
AMBER: A book a year sounds doable to me. I couldn't do more than a book a year. That's just no, that's too much. But yeah, a book a year would be fantastic.
KATIE: Yeah. So last one came out August 23. And this is October 24. So when did you pitch this and they got like, okay, yeah, we're going to publish it? I know when you, when did they say we're taking it? And then decided a date?
AMBER: So the process for this one was a little bit weird because of the changes. So I pitched it in July. So I pitched it before text appeal came out. And then I heard back from them, I believe in August. That's when we talked about the changes that they would want to see. And I ended up sending them a revised synopsis in September. I think that that's when they made the offer, but we didn't announce it until quite a bit later because we were working behind the scenes on contract stuff. So I think that I was already most of the way my revised synopsis was just a pitch. So I still had to revise the book and send them the final version before the developmental it happened. So there was a lot happening behind the scenes. So the process was very different for that one. Because with text appeal, it was very quickly. And this one we didn't.
KATIE: Right. Okay. When did you first make the announcement that this was coming out? I feel like it was only a couple months ago.
AMBER: Yeah, I think it might have been November.
KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. And then when did the cover come out?
AMBER: The cover we did. Yeah, we did the cover reveal, like, February 16, I think. So it was very, very recent. And it hit NetGalley at the same time. It's on NetGalley right now.
KATIE: Oh, cool. Yeah. So you gotta get your advance readers.
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: But okay, what is so the wait, there's a copy available in NetGalley?
AMBER: Yes. Yep.
KATIE: For those readers? Okay, so you already have. Oh, that's nice. Wow. So you guys move through the process. Like, did the copy edits already take place? Or is that after?
AMBER: The copy edits hadn't happened yet. The developmental edits had happened and the line edits had happened, but it went up on NetGalley without copy edits. So there are errors in the book in the arc, which right, that makes me know advance readers usually know this. They know that that's part of it.
KATIE: Yeah, yeah.
AMBER: And I think that after copy edits happened, I think that they updated the file. So what's there now? But I don't, I don't know if that's, that's their stuff.
KATIE: Yeah. Do you think any changes will come? Like, is that a thing that happens? Do changes come because of arc reviews?
AMBER: I have not made changes because of arc reviews. I don't know how often changes are made. I know that if something problematic pops up, you're able to change it. But I haven't made any changes based on arc reviews. Mostly we're looking for early buzz to get people talking about it, to show bookstores that there's interest, there's already over 80 reviews, I think, on NetGalley right now. So a lot of people are reading it already. So I think it's a lot about the early buzz right now. And people finding it funny to talk about.
KATIE: Yeah. And yeah, and hopefully some people will ask their bookstores if it's not there, you know, and is it a bigger distribution than the last book? Do you know about that piece?
AMBER: I don't know yet. I don't know. I don't know at what point they decide that.
KATIE: Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. Oh, it's so exciting. I'm very excited for you. Two books. That's awesome. That's really freaking cool. All right. Well, is there I have another question, but it's more about it's going to kind of take us back. Is there anything that you wanted to share about your process or anything that a writer would find useful?
AMBER: Oh, my goodness. I think going back to what I said earlier about the drafts only job is to exist. I think that that's that is the advice that gets me through. Just just right. Don't focus on the agent. Don't focus on the publishing deal. Just right. I I find that the best writing comes when I'm not working toward a publishing goal. My best writing comes when I'm writing for myself because I'm enjoying it and because the draft just has to exist. And you can't you can't edit if you don't have a draft.
KATIE: Very true. Very true. That's that is great advice. And remind yourself if you find yourself forgetting it, too, as you write this next one. And I wanted to ask, too, because we talked about this a little earlier about some of the stuff that had helped you. Are there any like books or resources or anything that you were like this helped me? Like you mentioned some are like story structure. What are a few things that really helped make a difference for you as you moved forward?
AMBER: Yes. So I already mentioned the romancing the beat.
KATIE: Yes. Yeah. I think I believe that's when he's I think that's right. I'll try and get the link in there on the show notes, too, for sure.
AMBER: I love that book because it's quick and easy. I can flip to different areas and kind of get myself back on track, even if I don't follow the beats as they're they're recommended, at least like it's great for brainstorming and coming up with ideas, seeing where where my characters are falling short or where my plot is falling short. I also I love pity the reader. It's Kurt Vonnegut.
KATIE: Oh, I haven't heard I have not heard of that one.
AMBER: It's so it either reader or the reader. And it's it's his essay that was called Pity the Reader. I believe it's called Pity the Reader. And then his student, it's the book is annotated with thoughts from one of his students. It's great. And a lot of it focuses on like journalism and that kind of writing. But it's great in general for for writing and learning writing craft. And I also like intuitive editing. I can't remember the author of that one. Sorry. And there's one more that I use. It's troubleshooting your novel is a great one for when you've already got a draft. I think it targets like if you're querying or pitching and not getting bites. But it also really helped me kind of untangle pieces when I couldn't figure out why my ending wouldn't work or I couldn't figure out, you know, why the characters weren't getting along when they were supposed to. Yeah, those are my go to's.
KATIE: That's awesome. You've kind of created your own system through those two.
AMBER: Yeah, yeah. And I have to follow my steps. I have to have my system. Otherwise, everything's hard.
KATIE: But that's part of it, right? It's like learning only things that work for you and then creating your own process because everyone has a different one. And it's not going to perfectly align with what someone else says is the process that works, you know. That's awesome.
AMBER: I know I'm a reader and a learner and I always want to learn things. And I've learned which processes don't work for me. So that I don't keep focusing on them.
KATIE: Yeah, there you go. That, hey, that's part of it is to figure out what works and then what doesn't. What you can throw out. But I think it's good because you've, you opened yourself up to learn all these and you said, okay, let me try it. Let me see. And okay, well, that doesn't work. But maybe this one piece does or I'll just fuck that and move to the thing that does work.
AMBER: Yeah.
KATIE: That's awesome. As they're at this stage. So next for you is promoting this, trying some of your process on the next book. And any, what else? What else should we wear? Which do we do to keep up with you?
AMBER: I don't know. Just keep creating, I guess. Whatever, whatever it is that you want to create, whether that's silly memes on Instagram or short stories or novels. I mean, just chase that joy, I guess.
KATIE: I love that. Chase the joy. I love that so much because it is, it's really, it can be hard to remember, especially when there's so many now, as you've seen, once you become published, then there, the amount of things that you're doing and thinking about have amplified. There's so many more things that you're worried about that it's not just the story. But it sounds like you're working hard and kind of creating a balance as best possible. And you have people to support you, which seems absolutely key. You have your group, you've got a supportive husband and family, my God, your kids being your hype people love it.
AMBER: And they both want to be authors too.
KATIE: Oh, I love that. Of course. Oh my gosh. That is so sweet. And you're going to be there first. You're going to be their hype person too.
AMBER: Absolutely.
KATIE: That's so cool. Well, I'm really excited for you. So we can go order Haunt Your Heart Out and we can go pick up Text Appeal from the bookstore. Have a lot of fun reading it, both of them. I can't wait for Haunt Your Heart Out. That's gonna be super fun. I'm so glad that when we talked, now this book is out so that we could talk about all of your experience. Well, thank you so much for being here and talking and everything. And I can't wait to share this episode and for others to read your work and just to follow your journey. So I know that you're on Instagram a lot. What is your like, where can people find you? Where do they follow you?
AMBER: I am on Instagram, threads and sometimes TikTok at Amber Roberts writes, occasionally on Twitter at A Roberts writes, and then my website is Amber Roberts writes.com.
KATIE: Perfect.
AMBER: I'm glad I like the keeping it. I would never remember them if I didn't keep them the same.
KATIE: Oh my gosh. Agree. Agree. Oh, I like his, you're right. I just like zoomed in and his little eyebrows are cute. I love the facial hair too, like on the drawing. That's so fun. This is really cute. That's so exciting. Well, I'm really, really excited for you. It's been so fun watching your journey and how, I mean, pretty fast. Yours has been faster than a lot of people for sure, especially in traditional publishing. Because a lot of times it takes like two years and they were like, let's get this out there.
AMBER: Yeah. Yeah.
KATIE: Good for you. That's very cool.
AMBER: It's a whirlwind.
KATIE: Definitely, definitely.
AMBER: That's the easiest way to get bored at least.
KATIE: I love that. I mean, and it sounds like that's being bored is the last thing you ever want. So then it was set perfectly for you. Well, I can't wait for this Hunt Your Heart Out to come out and then to see what you do next. I'm very excited for you. Thanks for being here today and sharing your process and experience.
AMBER: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
